Today is a sad day in our state

It's odd that I do not like violence but yesterday when they put on the news that some guy was put to death who had been on death row for a long time and it was delayed because somebody complained that the drug cocktail that was used caused pain, I said to Pete, "WHAAAA???? I think he should go out screaming from pain. He certainly didn't think about easing the pain of the person/people he killed."

I just can't imagine how a person in his right mind can kill somebody. But on the other hand, do we put them all in institutions?? It's a quandry.

Well good, I hadn't heard that.

Esther said: "It's odd that I do not like violence but yesterday when they put on the news that some guy was put to death who had been on death row for a long time and it was delayed because somebody complained that the drug cocktail that was used caused pain, I said to Pete, "WHAAAA???? I think he should go out screaming from pain. He certainly didn't think about easing the pain of the person/people he killed."

I just can't imagine how a person in his right mind can kill somebody."



Esther, do you see the contradiction in what you just said? You don't believe in violence, but you think they should torture this man on Death Row. You "can't imagine how a person in his right mind can kill somebody," yet you condone killing - and even torturing - this man on Death Row.

So, I guess it's OK to kill people, but only if certain people judge them and determine they are dispensable? And same for torturing people - if certain people decide it's OK, then we, as a "civilized" society have the go-ahead to sadistically torture and maim them until they die?

Where is the logic here? Where is the compassion for your human brethren? At what point does a person slip from "human being" to "criminal" to "impersonalized object" ??

There's a lot of hypocracy, and self-righteousness, in such thinking. (Not attacking you, Esther, just that sort of thinking.)

In my opinion, when a person kills another person they have not only killed that person but all of the children grandchildren and great grandchildren who would have been born if not for one person's evil act. They have literally killed hundreds.

They have lost the right to live and walk among civilized people and are due no consideration once convicted. The same goes for child molesters, they cannot be cured any more than you can be "cured " from your sexual preference and will rape and kill other children to hide their crime.

It is a sad fact but it is reality that some do not deserve to live among us. I would not hesitate and would sacrifice the rest of my freedom and soul to kill any person who molested one of my grand kids with absolutely no remorse.

It has to stop somewhere.

I would not hesitate and would sacrifice the rest of my freedom and soul to kill any person who molested one of my grand kids with absolutely no remorse.

Not If I'm on the jury. You wouldn't spend a day in jail.

It's true that inmates are on death row a long time. The appeal process is lengthy and even after all the checks and balances that our judicial system has put in place and even though it is the best in the world there have been many people exonerated while waiting, and some even found innocent after execution. Who knows how many innocent people have been executed before we had modern technology like DNA testing? I think even one innocent person executed is one too many.

I am not even comfortable with the execution of those who are truly guilty. I believe that it is up to God to determine when our life should end. Who knows, that person may have repented in time and maybe been brought to God. Some people take longer and resist the work of the Holy Spirit.

I think we Christians should look at the life of Jesus and His example in the Gospels. The God revealed in the life of Jesus is a God of forgiveness and redemption.

There are many instances in the bible that support the death penalty. There are also instances of forgiveness. It's not an all or nothing deal. Same goes in our society. I can't argue that our justice system is perfect, it never will be. But I can say that the system has many checks and balances. I think we should also remember that there are many in prison that have committed murder that are not on death row. I can't speak for all cases, but those that I have read about in our area or state that have been sentenced to death have committed unthinkable crimes. IMO, the death penalty should be expanded to some crimes against children, the elderly, and kidnapping.

UM, no I didn't say I don't condone violence. I said I didn't like it. There is a time and a place for violence. So if when violence is committed upon another for the sake of gaining something he has or for the fun of it, then I'm first in line to try a little violence on the instigator. So it sounds like we can't decide who has done something against society and punish them. I disagree. There has to be law and order of some sort. Those of us who take a back seat on judgement may not be so willing to get back there when we personally are harmed or our loved ones are put to death by a criminal. I'm not sure why it is considered more humane to let a murderer stay in a little cubicle for the rest of his life after he has taken the life/lives of others. Yah, I'd probably have to hesitate a bit before actually killing somebody and hope I'm never faced with it.

So when I think it through, if a person is in his right mind when he kills, it had better be the judge or the guy who pulls the switch or gives the injection or even votes for legislation to do that. So what comes into play here is the difference between killing and murder. I should have said that I question whether a person can be in his right mind when he murders someone. But then I'm coming from my own rationale and don't understand how someone can physically harm someone that doesn't have it coming.

I believe a person can be forgiven but still have to pay a penalty for what he has done. Just ask my kids.

And yup, anyone can attack me that wants to, any way they want verbally. And yup, my way of thinking can be viewed as hypicrital, that's OK. Those of us who think that way have been and probably will be called worse. I stand where I stand after 67 years of living and viewing many different points of view and suspect I will go to my death with the same opinions.

jaytee wrote:There are many instances in the bible that support the death penalty. There are also instances of forgiveness. It's not an all or nothing deal. Same goes in our society. I can't argue that our justice system is perfect, it never will be. But I can say that the system has many checks and balances. I think we should also remember that there are many in prison that have committed murder that are not on death row. I can't speak for all cases, but those that I have read about in our area or state that have been sentenced to death have committed unthinkable crimes. IMO, the death penalty should be expanded to some crimes against children, the elderly, and kidnapping.

Well, I am not a Bible scholar or theologian and I can't tell you what the Bible's teaching is on capital punishment. I really don't think it says either way. If it did promote capital punishment I would think it would say which crimes warrent being put to death and which didn't.

Thinking of the example of Jesus, He tended to hang out with the sinners as He didn't come for the righteous. I don't remember that He ever handed anyone over to death. In fact the only one handed over to execution was Him and he was innocent. I remember one Gospel where the crowd wanted to stone to death the adultress as that was the law in those days. He wrote "something" in the dirt and said that "he who was without sin should cast the first stone".

I am not saying that I have more compassion for the criminal than the victim. I think Satan jumps for joy at the crime and also when we kill in the name of justice. I'm just saying that I do not want to be responsible for anyone's death even if it is "legal". The Muslims justify death in Allah's name and also justify mercy killings of their wives and daughters. Where do we draw the line what is a justifiable killing?

When I stand before God I do not want to explain why I put someone to death. I will have enough explaining to do. I think that only God knows every man's heart and soul. If I want Him to look at me with mercy instead of the just judgement that I deserve, than I feel that I have to al least try to show compassion to my brothers and sisters. It is what He asks of us.

Aside from that point I can't really say that my position really has anything to do with the bible. I just personally am not comfortable with the death sentance. I don't find joy in killing, no matter who dies.

I don't think any of us find joy in killing. I certainly find no joy when a predator rapes and kills a child, handicapped person, the elderly, or killing for just the 20 bucks in a cash register at the 7-11. We read about senseless murders every day. Seems like they don't have a problem killing. We as a society have the right to protect ourselves. IMO, we have given up to much to the criminals. It is getting where folks can't go out to the mall at night, walk down their own street, go anywhere without fear of something happening. I'm not saying that purse snatchers face the death penalty, but it's time we took out neighborhoods and our lives back. I remember the days when we as kids played outside all day and early evening without fear, all over the neighborhood. Better not do that now. How many dead children is it going to take before we wake up? How many times has a child been kidnapped only to find out that the perp was on probation or parole for molesting a child, only to be let out to do it again? Our system has failed. Most of the crimes are committed by repeat offenders. If we don't act, it will only get worse.

I don't think any of us find joy in killing.

I think you misunderstood my post or maybe I should have worded it better. I didn't mean to imply that you, or anyone here found joy in killing. I just meant that it saddened ME.

"In fact the only one handed over to execution was Him and he was innocent. "

Jesus wasn't innocent - he was GUILTY. It's just that we, today in our Christian society, don't agree that what he was guilty of was a crime. But the fact is, back in his day, and in his community, and under the government he lived under at that time, according to their laws, he was guilty.

Example: Suppose the city of Arcola had a law against stepping on the cracks of a sidewalk. Even if you think it's a stupid law, even if you're not hurting anyone, if the law says don't do it and you go ahead and you step on a crack, then you have committed a crime, and you are GUILTY.

That's one of the problems with being on a jury. I, personally, don't think there's anything wrong with smoking pot (as long as you're not driving, that is). But, since there is a law against it, if I were on a jury, whether or not I thought the law was a just law, I would have to I would have to vote to convict a person who was caught smoking pot, whether I agreed he had done something "wrong" or not.

Bottom line: Jesus was guilty.

Re the death penalty, I don't believe we have the right to kill other people, no matter what evil deed they have done. I do, however, believe we have the obligation to remove such people from society. If they can't be rehabilitated (and most of the really bad criminals can't), then we need to keep them where they cannot harm other people, which means prison.

To me, it's not so much a matter of punishment (which is really nothing other than vengence and retalliation), but of prevention. Ideally, prison would be used to rehabilitate. But, when that can't occur, then we need to use prison to prevent a bad guy from committing more crimes.

Many good men, our fathers and sons are forced to kill against their basic beliefs in a time of war and where would we be if this didn't happen? The men that they are killing are just fathers and sons themselves. Many don't have a real personal stake in it and were drafted or are serving out of a sense of duty to stop a threat to their own country and way of life. What would have become of us if our fathers hadn't killed many thousands of Germans and Japanese?

There are many good men, family men, laying in graves right now who didn't personally agree with killing and it went against their religious beliefs but there is a time to kill and we all enjoy our freedom today due to these men killing.


I can't see the difference, if you are killing to protect your country against evil from another country or a child molester who has been convicted three times or a man who raped and killed a 70 year old woman. There is a time to kill when a person does something so reprehensible against society. why lock him up and feed and pay for all of his medical expenses as well as his attourney fees while he rapes other men in prison?

Mikey's Musings.....

And speaking of Dickens..... Where did the phrase, "What the dickens" come from?

Per Google... Dickens is a euphemism for "devil". From Shakespeare's "Merry Wives of Windsor",(Act III, Scene II).
"I cannot tell what the dickens his name is".

Today we often hear it said as, "What the hell."

With ya, kid.

Jesus wasn't innocent - he was GUILTY. It's just that we, today in our Christian society, don't agree that what he was guilty of was a crime. But the fact is, back in his day, and in his community, and under the government he lived under at that time, according to their laws, he was guilty.

What was Jesus guilty of? Pilot was the governor and he, and he alone, determined guilt, yet Pilot determined that even after torture, Jesus was innocent.

Mat 27:22 Pilate said to them, "Then what should I do with Jesus, who is called the Christ?" They all said, "Let him be crucified!"
Mat 27:23 He asked, "What has he done wrong?" But they kept shouting louder and louder, "Let him be crucified!"
Mat 27:24 Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that a riot was about to break out instead. So he took some water and washed his hands in front of the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this man's blood. You must see to that yourselves."

With respect to capital punishment it clearly is used in the Old Testament. In the New Testament we are clearly to be subject to our government per Romans chapter 13. In our case here in California, the government authorizes the death penalty. That said, the real injustice is to the survivors of those that have been murdered because our inmates on death row (600+) will likely die from natural causes.....

That is very weird. I don't believe I have ever lost a post here.

I too would be frustrated.

Cool Chools wrote:Once again, what happened to the post I made yesterday, in reply to Mikey's? Goddamnit, Bullfrog, this is IRRITATING, to put it mildly. This is about the fifth time, at least, a post that I put a lot of time and thought into got lost. Pisses me off, and makes it hard to participate in the conversation.

I had something new to add today, but since my comments from yesterday are not viewable, no point in making the effort.

I SAW it on the page after I hit "send," so why is it not up NOW?!?!

Pissed off!!

Is there any chance that you are hitting "Preview" instead of the "Send" button sometimes. You will see it like it posted but it doesn't save on the thread. I know I've done this a couple of times when I have been in a hurry

Another thought. One time I made a comment on a thread and hit send. Before I got the return message that my comment has been added I hit my back arrow to get back to the main menu and so doing my thread was not posted.

I didn't even know I had a "cache". I have heard of cookies and have heard to delete them. But mostly I eat cookies so am totally lost.

I resynched the forum also, hitting the "preview" instead of "send" button is a good possibility as well as what Mike said. I have never had this happen. Are regular members able to see the "Help" area?